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Negotiating with the Dean: MathFest 2004 Panel Transcript
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Job Search
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By jensen
Posted Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 01:26:49 AM PDT
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This panel was held at MathFest 2004 in Providence, RI on Saturday,
Aug 14, 2004 from 1:00 p.m. - 2:20 p.m.. The panel was organized by
Kimber Tysdal (Hood College) and Jacqueline Jensen (Sam Houston
State University). This panel addressed the fine art of negotiating with the dean.
The panelists discuss their experiences with negotiation, particularly negotiation prior
to accepting an offered position.
Panelists included David Kung, St. Mary's College of Maryland;
Katharine Socha, formerly at Michigan State University now at
St. Mary's College of Maryland; Charles Hadlock, Bentley College;
and Jon Jacobsen, Harvey Mudd College (in absentia).
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The first panelist to present was David Kung who entitled his presentation
Getting Everything... and the Kitchen Sink
David pointed out that in the whole application process you are never really
are in a "position of power"- during the submission of applications, the interviews,
and the time when you wait to hear, all power is out of your hands. And then you get an offer
and you have some power - you can now start to negotiate.
The thing that is most commonly negotiated is salary, although there are some other big
issues which are commonly discussed. To help you negotiate salary, you should know the
previous year's numbers, which can be found on the AMS site at http://www.ams.org/employment/facsal.html
or the Chronicle site at http://chronicle.com/stats/aaup/
It is also helpful to know the current round of offers. David networked with friends,
let them know what offers he was getting and they did the same. He also mentioned that
the Young Mathematicians Network website could serve a similar
function (and you can post anonymously). Also, it was
mentioned that there is a site for particle physics that does
basically this. It is online at http://www.physics.wm.edu/~calvin/index.html.
Look at cost of living figures. The Chronicle site has link to a cost of living calculators
at http://salary.com.
Sometimes it is very difficult to negotiate salary, but you can think about these other
ways to negotiate for something beneficial.
Some schools will award you credit toward tenure if you have held a post-doctoral position
or have held a previous job.
Many universities are now supporting applications for Project NExT, and this is something
you should discuss with your new university before arriving, especially since application
deadlines are in the spring for the following fall.
Another important item to discuss before accepting a job is teaching. Sometimes you can
negotiate for course releases (usually first year, although sometimes longer), fewer
preparations (i.e. ask to be allowed to teach multiple sections of the same course),
teach a topics course, or request grading help.
In terms of research, you may be able to ask your new department to guarantee travel money
(a certain number of conferences per year, or a certain amount of funding), start-up money
for equipment, books, student help, etc., money for computer equipment that you may require,
if you need more than standard package. In addition, you could ask for summer salary for your
first summer with the institution. While this is rare, it has been heard to happen. If you are
also offered a post-doc position, you can ask for one year leave for the post-doc, and to begin
your contract the following year.
There are many extra things that you might find valuable at your new job. As you gather offers,
you might also consider negotiating for a job for partner/spouse. You can ask for moving
expenses - many universities can arrange to pay some or all of your moving expenses, knowing
that this will cost them less than giving you a higher salary. You might request a return
trip to the area in order to find housing, bring partner, etc.
David felt that it was important for him to have an office on the sunny side of the building,
and that this would make the offer (and his life in his new institution) better. Along these
lines, David posed the question the audience "What would make your life more enjoyable? Nice violin? An espresso machine?
Whatever it is, try to negotiate for it."
The second panelist was Katharine Socha, who talked a bit about negotiating for her position
at the Lyman Briggs School at Michigan State University. Her appointment was 75% in the
Lyman Briggs school and 25% in the Mathematics Department. The Lyman Briggs school is
basically a small "liberal arts" type college for engineering students within the large
university.
The program director was doing the negotiating for Katharine.
Unfortunately, when Katharine arrived the program director got
fired and hence a lot of the vision that the director had left with her.
When Katherine got to her new job and she began to negotiate what courses she
would teach, it didn't go to well. Specifically, she had taught
calculus in Lyman Briggs but then the math department also wanted
her to teach calculus. However, the original plan was that she would get
to teach upper division/graduate courses in the mathematics department. This was rectified
when she talked to the acting director. They were able to reach an agreement, and she was
able to teach more advanced courses at MSU.
One of the morals of the story is that if you get to the point
where a school makes you an offer (and even more so, once you
accept and are there), they have made an investment in you and
they want you to be happy and to be a success. For the school,
doing a search not fun.
It is good if you can offer practical advice to rectify the situation if you find yourself
unhappy in a position that you have accepted.
The third panelist was Charles Hadlock, who is a former dean and so can provide some
"inside" perspective.
The most important point made by Charles was whenever involved in any negation, you need
to think about the other parties' perspectives. There will typically be three parties involved
in any negotiation: you, the department chair, and the dean (or other administrator).
Different department chairs will have varied negotiating skills; some may be petrified of
the dean while others may be willing and able to ask for almost anything. In any event,
no one really likes it if/when a candidate to whom they have made an offer ends up turning
them down, everybody wants to close the deal. As Katherine also mentioned, conducting a
search is not so fun you would intentionally try to do it again and again.
As a negotiator, you need to realize that different people will feel different constraints.
For example, a timid department chair may feel constrained to close the deal at the
original salary level and feels uncomfortable requesting more money from the dean while a
more enterprising chair might actually want to try to negotiate a higher salary so that in
the future this inflated pay rate can be used to bring up the salaries of other members of
the department. Charles points out that no matter what the dean says, there is always money.
A larger concern for the dean when increasing salary is that there will be 20 other faculty
complaining about equity.
There are several things to remember while negotiating. In particular, in the end you want it
to feel like a win-win for both sides. It might be possible to say to school A that you got
an offer of $45K from school B (probably best to not use name) and try to use this get get a
higher offer from school A, but do you want to be perceived as money grubbing? Remember that
you will have to work with the people with whom you are negotiating, and they will remember what
happened during the negotiating process. It is probably better to use a strategy like saying,
"I'm planning to come here but the going rate for salary seems to be...."
When negotiating salary, remember that salary can be easily compared by people already at the
department or hired at the same time you were, and thereby can cause equity issues.
Therefore, negotiating for other things like on David Kung's list is a great idea. From
the dean's perspective, it is easier to offer a one time $5K versus even a $1K higher salary.
The final panelist was Jon Jacobsen (in absentia). He sent notes on negotiating, which
included the following points.
When negotiating, you need to recognize that negotiating is strange behavior, but it
represents an opportunity.
However, it might be appropriate to negotiate for funds which might be used for:
purchasing computer equipment, professional travel costs, research books, office equipment, etc.
Jon set out the following steps for negotiating:
1. Decide what you need
2. Find out what will be provided
3. Make out a budget
4. Talk to department chair
5. Talk to the dean
Jon also encourages negotiators to use the department chair as a liaison in your
negotiations with other administrators.
The audience was then allowed to ask questions.
Q: How do you deal with timing issues?
(e.g. you get an offer from A and have to let them know in
two weeks, but still haven't heard from B or C, etc.)
A: Dave said he shared complete info among 5 of his friends/colleagues which helped him know
where other schools were in the hiring process. This is one of the hardest parts of the process
and you do not really have much control. Usually when an offer is made, you have approximately
two weeks to decide, this is sort of the industry standard. It is possible to keep the schools
you are interested "in the know" by letting them know if you get an offer and ask them where
you stand or where they are in their hiring process.
The department chair may call candidates to scope things out. Even the department chairs
realize you are visiting other schools, and know that you may have other time constraints.
Q: So when do offers start happening?
A: Typically it will be shortly after the school has brought its
final candidates in for a campus visit and scheduling of campus
visits typically starts to happen soon after Joint meetings.
For schools you are interested in, it is in your best interest to keep them up to speed about
campus visits, etc. As far as scheduling your on campus visits, you might try to
have them close together (but not so that it is too exhausting), so that you will have as much
information at your disposal as possible when making decisions.
Remark: Make sure you are diplomatic, one bad impression can really stick.
Q: For a joint appointment, what kinds of things go into the "memo of understanding?"
A: The first and most important is the time commitment for each
department. For a joint appointment you do not want to go
50-50 because then both departments will think they own you
and it will end up a 200% appointment.
You might want voting rights in the various departments spelled out.
How are you going to get evaluated? Get it really pinned down.
In a joint appointment this is really key.
Having a mentor would be really helpful - this may even be something
you might negotiate about.
Q: If you get a tenure track offer and a post
doc offer, can you ask for one year delay from the tenure track and
do the post doc for a year and then go to the tenure track position?
A: Yes, and this happens. But does one year of the post doc add enough
value? Often times the first year anywhere will be primarily focused on adjusting to the
department and getting to know the faculty. You need to judge for
yourself if one year would be sufficient time to take advantage of a post-doc. Also, the
school offering you the tenure track position may be a bit reluctant to do this
because after a year of your post doc you might change your mind
and leave them hanging.
Q: What about applying for a post-doc and a
tenure track position at the some university (e.g. if I don't get
a tenure track position then a post doc would still be okay)?
A: You can just apply for both, in fact some places assume this
by default.
Q: Do any schools low-ball your salary and expect you to negate up?
A: Yes at some places. An as mentioned above, your first year salary
is the most important thing because given the choice between a
$1K higher starting salary versus $5K startup funds (or any other one
time things) we all would opt for the higher initial salary, since we know how to
work out the compound interest issues. Also remember that starting $1K higher will put
you that much higher when it comes to raises.
Q: Earlier you mentioned posting anonymously on info on various offers,
is there any risk of a school finding out you posted this info
(even anonymously) and getting upset?
A: No one on the panel seemed to feel there should be too much of
a problem with this. |
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