YMN The Young Mathematicians' Network
Serving the Community of Young Mathematicians
Sections: Front Page   Job Search   Grad Life   Career   Work and Family Life   Editors   Misc   Research   Teaching   Undergrad Life   Events   News
Non-academic job search Job Search
By SeminoleNo1
Posted Sun Jan 12, 2003 at 02:52:13 PM PDT
I don't know if 9 years out of the PhD qualifies me as young still, but if it does, here goes another job search diary!
[editor's note, by SeminoleNo1] Note, follow on stories resubmitted as comments

Post a Comment

In 1993, I graduated from UVa into a bad academic market. By summer of 94, I had completed a visiting instructor position at UCSD, and faced 8 months unemployment, finally making a career transition to software engineer. Since then, I've worked for 4 companies, twice as a software engineer, once as a systems engineer, and the last job as a senior mathematician. Of my four job changes, twice I resigned and twice (the last two) I was laid off.


Both companies that laid me off were small companies lacking funding. The first layoff, while dramatic (my first time), I landed quickly. I was told on a Wednesday, allowed to work through to the end of the week, had an interview Monday, an offer Tuesday and back to work with only one week off. Just really an unplanned vacation. The second one was into a much more brutal job market.


The Raleigh-Durham area has suffered through downsizing of all its largest technical companies other than SAS. IBM, Cisco, Nortel, Worldcom, etc all of laid off thousands into a relatively small job market. The official local area unemployment sits at 5.4%, but if you know anything about how the unemployment rate is calculated, you know how deceptive that can be, with the real rate often twice or more the government stats. For example, the number of unemployed is only counted as the number filing unemployment claims. If your unemployment benefits have run out, you don't file, so you aren't in the statistics. Moreover, the unemployment rate is only counted overall, the technical area is probably much higher here.


I have come to love this area, and would like to stay. Yet since being laid off with 3/4 the local office of my last employer, the cumulative number of interviews by my former collegues within our respective areas sits at about zero. One guy took a job in construction to tide him over, so we won't count that interview. Several others have moved away, living with family until things improve in those areas they went to. The biggest pain is that we are all experienced in development of products, not support and maintenance (those guys were retained by our former employer). And few are doing development in this area.


So I debate, try to hold out in this area, or move. Some areas are much better than the Triangle for PhD mathematicians with software skills, such as the Baltimore-DC-Northern Virginia area.


To be continued ...

< Interviews at the AMS-MAA Meetings | Problems with Reimbursement >
Display: Sort:
Non-academic job search | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 hidden)
[new] Impact of 9/11 (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by jvano on Sun Sep 08, 2002 at 04:04:13 PM PDT

You noted...

> Some areas are much better than the Triangle
> for PhD mathematicians with software skills,
> such as the Baltimore-DC-Northern Virginia
> area.

Is this area are better for mathematicians due to jobs centered around the "war on terrorism", e.g. jobs such as working for the NSA?



[new] Part II of this story now available (none / 0) (#7)
by SeminoleNo1 on Tue Sep 17, 2002 at 08:57:02 AM PDT

http://www.youngmath.net/concerns/story/2002/9/14/15115/3142



  • Part III by SeminoleNo1, 11/07/2002 09:54:53 PDT (none / 0)
[new] Part II moved to comment (none / 0) (#9)
by SeminoleNo1 on Sun Jan 12, 2003 at 02:25:09 PM PDT

The story to date:

June 19th

Wednesdays seem to be bad days for jobs and me. It was a Wednesday the last time I got laid off. At least that time I felt at least respected and felt the management was truly sorry. It really came without warning. I was called into our CTO office and was the first informed. He told me he felt bad, and he informed me when I asked that I was the first told, mainly because I expected me to be the one with the most maturity and would make it the easiest on him. I was after all the oldest laid off and the one with the most job experience. He was green at this, so I laid it on the line that I thought he was doing it wrong. He needed to tell everyone at once. Though never previously laid off myself, I had been a place where it happened. Word got out layoffs were happening, and the very guy I was talking to got called in to speak with management. We knew what he was being called for. That was a much more pleasant situation, as they allowed us to stick around a couple of days and earn our pay through the end of the week, even using the company resources to job hunt in that time. It was about the smoothest layoff one could help for.

Not this time. We got word late on Tuesday about an all-hands meeting. We had suspected layoffs were coming for weeks, even in the face of words to the contrary from management. We were lied to, and what info they had they kept from us, and we knew it. Some of us suspected the meeting was about layoffs -- previous layoffs (three smaller ones) had been followed by meetings to regroup the survivors. Each of the previous ones had been 6 or fewer guys. When we arrived Wednesday, we couldn't access the computers, there was a mysterious stack of boxes in a smaller conference room, and management was hiding. Several normally early to work employees weren't there. They had been told not to come in that day, not because they were cut, but that they survived. This layoff, half the company was getting it, including about 3/4 of this office, the headquarters office. We had our meeting, said exit interviews would be next week, and we were given two hours to pack our desks and leave. At least this time I got a small severance.
Early weeks

It is often in times like this that transitions happen. You take time to reflect, you evaluate not just career but life, and many change careers in times like this. With my severance making me ineligible for unemployment until it ran out anyway, after initialing contacting some headhunters I had used before and updating resumes on places like monster.com, I took time to reflect and do some volunteering. To guide reflection, I thought back on the recently read Halftime by Bob Buford and by Bolle's famous What Color is Your Parachute? All they served to do is to reinforce something I had already planned to do, which is to continue involvement in helping other Christians realize God has a defining purpose in their life, but for now outside of any work. I am in no position to even consider making any transition to doing something with that full time. That would likely take years of seminary training to qualify. Now is the time to find a job doing what I do well, and return to the classroom to explore other career options at another time

Additionally, I met with someone from a big name career counseling service. With some short debate, I skip paying the big $$$. I have an idea anyway, so why spend the dollars.
July/August

Well, the severance runs out, so it is time to get more serious about job hunting. I had spoken to one highly recommended recruiter, who had aggressively marketed me to a few firms before the severance ran out, but nothing comes of it (one company even shut down weeks later). Everyone so highly recommends networking, but everyone around here seems to know at least a dozen unemployed folks. It gets kind of depressing hearing "oh, you too". Several of my former coworkers move soon after the layoff - in fact, only two have found any position, both who found those within a few days (hmmm, already job hunting were they?). Others I know have put houses on the market, gone to work in various new (questionable?) sales deals, etc.
Last week of August

Such fun. Two job fairs. One is for a company (Red Hat), the other is one of those with several companies arranged by a professional job fair "broker". At the first, I'm shuffled in and out in about five minutes. I knew I wasn't the best match and without really coming down in $$ I'm asking, I didn't stand a chance, but I've already pitched myself at about 13% less than my last pay. Any further, and I feel and to some extent know that if a potential employer got a hold of my last pay rate then they would just assume I would leave as soon as I could get something closer to that.

The second job fair is at a "Suites" hotel. Three companies are there. I remember going to these things and seeing more than 30 companies when times were better. It's an interesting site. One company, an out of state company coming in to recruit job seekers for relocation, has no line. I quickly drop off a resume, not at that time wanting to think relo until at least January. The second, with a small line, has someone come out every now and then and announce what jobs they have, at which time the line shrinks in an instance (system admins and dental hygienists(?)). The third has a long line. I know what they are hiring for. They really not hiring, it's just that they might get a big local contract involving 400 jobs. Truth is, most of those jobs will be offered to the current contract holder's employees, employees who would likely be laid off by the incumbent contract holder when they lose it. My guess is that at least 360 of those 400 won't be there, and most of those 40 will be contract management, HR, and other admin kinds of jobs. At least time in line allows me to catch up with Clayton, the guy who used to sit in the cubicle next to me at my last employer.

Later in the week, I meet with former colleagues for lunch. The news is depressing as ever. Those who still work for my old company are likely to be gone in September.

Next time: we finish catching the story up to date ...



[new] Part III as comment (none / 0) (#10)
by SeminoleNo1 on Sun Jan 12, 2003 at 02:26:08 PM PDT

Well, I left the story off at the end of August. More than two months of catchup.

September, no calls, nothing. Really a dead period. It became increasingly clear that a move may be necessary.

October Started opening up to the possiblity of relocating. Around the first, I started submitting to companies that would require relo. Early on, I discovered www.intelligencecareers.com. Since I had previously held a security clearance, this sounded like a possibility, so I submitted resume for their online posting.

This would work. My first choices for relocating would be southern east coast to mid atlantic, except South Carolina (sorry S.C. fans, I just can't see being there). The metro DC area sounds like the strongest possibility, because the unemployment rate there is low, there seems to be a broad job market for math PhDs, and I know something of the area having gone to school at the University of Virginia and worked in Maryland in the late '80s.

October Heavy in spending time and money on the yard, looking for that good drive by look if we have to sell in the spring. I plant close to 50 plants to complete beds that I had planned to fill over two or three years. That time table got moved up.

October 17 My first call in months!!
October 18 Another call!

Jumping ahead, I've received about 8 or 10 calls (losing track). Most don't like my time frame (not starting until March) or my lack of an active security clearance, but many say they will get me high on their list if one job fits my conditions.

November 1st recruiter wants me to go to New Mexico. Not yet willing to consider that, but we will stay in touch

November 7th After the third call this week, my wife and I discuss the March time frame issue. She is starting to get nervous that we are passing up too many opps somewhat arbitrarily. We agree to move the starting date target from March 3rd to January 27th. And with that, I am in the postion to get more aggressive (if you wrote me a personal note about positions at your company -- look for me to follow up soon: my time frame for relo consideration has moved up).

Well, with the increased activity, I'll start updating this more often. See you next week!


[new] Part IV moved here as comment (none / 0) (#11)
by SeminoleNo1 on Sun Jan 12, 2003 at 02:27:49 PM PDT

Originally posted 12/7

Ok, Ok, I said I was going to make this weekly, so sue me, it's been a month.

:-P

Since Nov 7th, what happened?

Well, my wife and I decided to move up the search target for relo to the end of January. Not that it has driven any more interest -- I did turn away some earlier that needed me sooner than the previous relo date, but that really hasn't done any good to move it up.

The biggest frustration is all the attention from the DC area, only to have the interest die because no one wants to wait for me to get a clearance, or even pay for the clearance. I've worked in the past for the NSA, and spent four years on a black budget project with Raytheon (I'd tell you about it but then I'd have to kill you :-) ).

I've lost a couple of dozen prospects because my last debriefing was more than 2 years ago, the cutoff imposed on them by the contracting agency -- interestingly, always directly nameless, but they can give a location. In one case, I knew what went on at the location only because of my work at Raytheon, but for the rest, anybody with a little research can figure out the "code". I mean, who can't figure out what they really mean by "Ft Meade" or "Langley"?

Any hoot, I keep plugging. Sorry I don't have more to give you guys that might be useful. The private sector market is pretty bad for now, but that can change sometimes rather quickly. For me, it could change with a simple loosing of that pesky two year requirement, in which case I would probably be subject to a bidding war for my services. Ah, that would be nice!

Actually, I do have some useful info, but I am going to do that in a separate article, a follow on to an article I did in "Concerns" way back in '95 or so: Notes on the Electronic Job Search

Now if I can just find a copy of the original



[new] End game? (none / 0) (#12)
by SeminoleNo1 on Sun Jan 12, 2003 at 02:39:30 PM PDT

With mid December came a shift to focusing southward. Each call I got from the DC area basicly ended when they found out I didn't have a recent clearance, other than this place that does work for NIH (yawn). Still haven't heard a second call from them.

Typically, January is a good time for non-academic job hunters for a double whammy reason. One is that it is the beginning of a quarter for eventually everyone, the other that it is the beginning of a new fiscal year for about 3/4 of everyone (notably exception of the government who doesn't have to worry about their tax year not aligning with the fiscal year). I had bet the over/under with my wife on the first business Monday would be 3, and I'd take the over. I lost -- got one. I set the week's over/under at 8, and took over again. Lost (3 total) ... but maybe not really ....

Call number 3 (on Wednesday the 8th) was a phone screen from Harris in Melbourne FL. At the end of the call, we set up a phone interview for the next day. Less than an hour after the phone interview, I got a call from them again -- to set up a face to face interview.

Today (jan 12th), I got informed that I have only two weeks of unemployment benefits left. I guess the 13 week federal extension hasn't been entered into the system yet. We'll see if I will need to dip into the extension or not ...







[new] Update (none / 0) (#15)
by SeminoleNo1 on Wed Apr 02, 2003 at 12:21:25 PM PDT

Wow, haven't updated since January. That's about 2.5 months.

Hmm, short update is that I'm still unemployed, and have about two weeks of benefits left. I'm into the 13 week federal extension now.

The good news is that there are a lot of birds tweeting in my bush, just none in hand. I've got three hot prospects and two cooling on back burners but still out there. I'm juggling the scheduling of three interview prospects currently, try to get them nailed down on when.

We'll see what happens


[new] Game Over (none / 0) (#16)
by SeminoleNo1 on Mon Jun 09, 2003 at 03:02:42 PM PDT

Booz-Allen-Hamilton, start 6/16.

Linthicum Maryland, on their National Security Team.

Sorry to any faithful readers that were trying to follow this story. I just don't believe that anyone other than YMN board members check here, and probably only a fraction of them. Certainly there haven't been any comments on this search column other than mine since the original four or five.

If I can sum up my experience, it's that God is good. I always felt His presence through the search, that He was purifying me for something. Not BAH itself, but something down the line. I feel clearer about my purpose in life, and I don't know if I would have that without the past year.

Recommended reading:
What Color is Your Parachute? author's name escapes for the moment
John Eldredge "Wild At Heart" and "Journey of Desire"
Bob Buford "Halftime"
Rick Warren "The Purpose Drive Life"
Brent Curtis and John Eldredge "Sacred Romance" -- this isn't a marriage book!



Non-academic job search | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:
Menu
create account
FAQ
Search
Recent Comments

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Poll
Should this series continue beyond this one story?
Yes, I'm curious to see how things turn out
Yes, I think it will be helpful to me
I don't care
No, nine years out from a PhD isn't "young" and inappropriate for this forum
No, isn't this strictly a forum for mathematicians in academia?
Yes for other reasons
No for other reasons

Votes: 18
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
Also by SeminoleNo1

SourceForge Logo Powered by Scoop
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest

create account | faq | search